Kevin Patrick Mostyn Family - Person Sheet
Kevin Patrick Mostyn Family - Person Sheet
Web Notes notes for William GRANDMESNIL
Ancestry of Petronella de Grandmesnil:
"The ancestry of Petronella, heiress of the Norman honor of Grandmesnil, and wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester (d.1190).
To recap briefly, Petronella has long been known to have been a great granddaughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil, the Domesday tenant [1], and more recently it has been discovered [2] that Petronella's father was called William. Assuming that William was a descendant of Hugh in the male line, the question is: which of Hugh's five sons was the father of William?
Firstly, as Richard Borthwick pointed out during the previous discussion, Keats-Rohan [3] says that Petronella's father William was the son of Robert (Hugh's eldest son), by his second wife Emma [daughter of Robert] de Stuteville. A similar descent was tentatively suggested in the Complete Peerage, on the basis that it was Robert who had inherited the honor of Grandmesnil (although CP did not know the name of Petronella's father, and wrongly guessed that he was called Hugh). If Keats-Rohan's identification is based on direct evidence rather than inference, the question should be finally settled next year when vol.2 of "Domesday People" appears.
Nearly all the genealogical evidence about the family derives from the Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis [4]. This includes an overall survey of the family written (possibly as a later edition to the work) after the death of Robert, the eldest son of Hugh, around 1136. Unfortunately, Robert's heir is not named. However, there is no indication that he died without issue; at any rate, his longevity is contrasted with the fate of his younger brothers: not one of them [the brothers] except Robert lived to old age or enjoyed peaceful prosperity for very long.
Orderic does mention one grandson of Hugh who was called William. This was the son of Hugh's son William, who went to Apulia and married Mabel, daughter of Robert Guiscard. The fullest accounts of the Apulian branch I have seen are those of Chalandon [5] and Jamison [6]. On this evidence, the younger William does not seem a very likely candidate as the father of Petronella. The elder William was dead by 1114 [7]. His initial heir seems to have been the younger William, but he was
succeeded by his brother Robert by the late 1120s (apparently by 1127 [5]). Perhaps it could still be argued that an infant daughter of William (Petronella?) might be passed over in favour of his adult brother. But as Petronella married in the mid-to-late 1150s [8], presumably she would have been born around the late 1130s, so that, even given this special pleading, the Apulian William would have died 10-20 years too early to be her father.
Here are a couple of documents which may refer to the William who was the father of Petronella:
. (i) A charter of Henry II (1157) confirms to the hospital of Falaise (among other lands) "the chapel of Vilers and the land, given them by Hugh de Merlaio and William de Grentmesnil and other prudhommes of that vill" [9]
. (ii) A charter (undated), abstracted by Lechaude d'Anisy [10], by which Beatrix de Rye gives to St Jean of Falaise various pieces of land in Beauvane-en-Montabart, for the well-being of her mother Emma and of her brother William de Grentemesnil, and confirms their gifts to this abbey. (Her son is later named as William de Rye.)
. Unfortunately, Beatrix's charter is not dated, although if the abstract is accurate in referring to St Jean as an abbey, it must at least be later than May 1160 [11]. Perhaps someone with more specialist knowledge can comment on the dating. But granted that both charters refer to the same house, it seems probable that they refer to the same William de Grandmesnil. This would be in the right time-frame to be the father of Petronella.
. If this identification is correct, Beatrix's mother Emma could be the Emma, daughter of Robert de Stuteville, who was the second wife of Robert de Grandmesnil (Hugh's eldest son) (and this is precisely the parentage for William stated by Keats-Rohan [3]). Perhaps it is also worth noting that the name Beatrix occurs in the de Stuteville family; in fact according to Clay's reconstruction [12], Beatrix was the mother of Emma de Stuteville. On this basis, the Beatrix de Rye of the charter would have been named after her maternal grandmother.
None of this is at all conclusive, although it does seem consistent with a straightforward inheritance of the honor of Grandmesnil by Robert the eldest son of Hugh, followed by Robert's son William, and finally, through William's daughter Petronilla, by the "Beaumont" earls of Leicester.
. References
[1] J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 653.
[2] D.Crouch, ‘The Beaumont Twins’, p.91, citing Ctl St-Evroult, ii, fo 33v.
[3] K.S.B.Keats-Rohan, ‘Domesday People’ (1999), p.263.
[4] ed. M.Chibnall (1980).
[5] F.Chalandon, ‘Histoire de la Domination Normande en Italie et en Sicile’ (1907).
[6] E.M.Jamison, ‘Some Notes on the Anonymi Gesta Francorum ...’ (1939), in "Studies on the History of Medieval Sicily and South Italy" (1992), p.291.
[7] Although [5] cites a supposed charter to which William is a party in 1122, [6] mentions at least three documents between 1114 and 1117 which imply he is dead.
[8] Complete Peerage, Leicester’, citing J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 1062.
[9] J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 1157.
[10] Lechaude d’Anisy, "Extrait des Chartes, et Autres Actes, Normands ou Anglo-Normands, qui se trouvent dans les archives du Calvados" (1834) i 232, no 9.
[The French text is: Beatrix de Rye, par une charte sans date, donne a Saint-Jean-de-Falaise,
avec le consentement de son fils, diverses pieces de terre a Beauvane-en-Montabart, pour le salut d’Emma, sa mere, et de Guillaume de Grentemesnil, son frere, et confirme en meme temps les donations que ces deux derniers avaient faites a cette abbaye. La charte porte que Beatrix recut pour cette concession, non seulement diverses sommes d’argent, mais encore trois palefrois et une vache pour elle; et pour son fils Guillaume de Rye, un cheval du prix de cent dix sols angevins. Cette
charte porte egalement qu’elle la scella de son propre sceau et qu’elle le fit confirmer aux assises de Falaise par les gens du roi, Guillaume de Creully, Henri de Pont-Audemer, Michel Belet et Julien de Rye. (Ce sceau est brise).]
[11] Before this date the house had been a priory. A.Meriel, "Histoire de l'Abbaye Royale de Saint-Jean-de-Falaise" (1883).
[12] C.T.Clay (ed.) Early Yorkshire Charters, vol.ix, p.2 (1952). Beatrix certainly seems likely to have been an ancestress of the Emma who married Robert de Grandmesnil. But it is difficult to reconcile in detail the entry form the Liber Vitae of Durham with Clay's pedigree.
"The ancestry of Petronella, heiress of the Norman honor of Grandmesnil, and wife of Robert, Earl of Leicester (d.1190).
To recap briefly, Petronella has long been known to have been a great granddaughter of Hugh de Grandmesnil, the Domesday tenant [1], and more recently it has been discovered [2] that Petronella's father was called William. Assuming that William was a descendant of Hugh in the male line, the question is: which of Hugh's five sons was the father of William?
Firstly, as Richard Borthwick pointed out during the previous discussion, Keats-Rohan [3] says that Petronella's father William was the son of Robert (Hugh's eldest son), by his second wife Emma [daughter of Robert] de Stuteville. A similar descent was tentatively suggested in the Complete Peerage, on the basis that it was Robert who had inherited the honor of Grandmesnil (although CP did not know the name of Petronella's father, and wrongly guessed that he was called Hugh). If Keats-Rohan's identification is based on direct evidence rather than inference, the question should be finally settled next year when vol.2 of "Domesday People" appears.
Nearly all the genealogical evidence about the family derives from the Ecclesiastical History of Orderic Vitalis [4]. This includes an overall survey of the family written (possibly as a later edition to the work) after the death of Robert, the eldest son of Hugh, around 1136. Unfortunately, Robert's heir is not named. However, there is no indication that he died without issue; at any rate, his longevity is contrasted with the fate of his younger brothers: not one of them [the brothers] except Robert lived to old age or enjoyed peaceful prosperity for very long.
Orderic does mention one grandson of Hugh who was called William. This was the son of Hugh's son William, who went to Apulia and married Mabel, daughter of Robert Guiscard. The fullest accounts of the Apulian branch I have seen are those of Chalandon [5] and Jamison [6]. On this evidence, the younger William does not seem a very likely candidate as the father of Petronella. The elder William was dead by 1114 [7]. His initial heir seems to have been the younger William, but he was
succeeded by his brother Robert by the late 1120s (apparently by 1127 [5]). Perhaps it could still be argued that an infant daughter of William (Petronella?) might be passed over in favour of his adult brother. But as Petronella married in the mid-to-late 1150s [8], presumably she would have been born around the late 1130s, so that, even given this special pleading, the Apulian William would have died 10-20 years too early to be her father.
Here are a couple of documents which may refer to the William who was the father of Petronella:
. (i) A charter of Henry II (1157) confirms to the hospital of Falaise (among other lands) "the chapel of Vilers and the land, given them by Hugh de Merlaio and William de Grentmesnil and other prudhommes of that vill" [9]
. (ii) A charter (undated), abstracted by Lechaude d'Anisy [10], by which Beatrix de Rye gives to St Jean of Falaise various pieces of land in Beauvane-en-Montabart, for the well-being of her mother Emma and of her brother William de Grentemesnil, and confirms their gifts to this abbey. (Her son is later named as William de Rye.)
. Unfortunately, Beatrix's charter is not dated, although if the abstract is accurate in referring to St Jean as an abbey, it must at least be later than May 1160 [11]. Perhaps someone with more specialist knowledge can comment on the dating. But granted that both charters refer to the same house, it seems probable that they refer to the same William de Grandmesnil. This would be in the right time-frame to be the father of Petronella.
. If this identification is correct, Beatrix's mother Emma could be the Emma, daughter of Robert de Stuteville, who was the second wife of Robert de Grandmesnil (Hugh's eldest son) (and this is precisely the parentage for William stated by Keats-Rohan [3]). Perhaps it is also worth noting that the name Beatrix occurs in the de Stuteville family; in fact according to Clay's reconstruction [12], Beatrix was the mother of Emma de Stuteville. On this basis, the Beatrix de Rye of the charter would have been named after her maternal grandmother.
None of this is at all conclusive, although it does seem consistent with a straightforward inheritance of the honor of Grandmesnil by Robert the eldest son of Hugh, followed by Robert's son William, and finally, through William's daughter Petronilla, by the "Beaumont" earls of Leicester.
. References
[1] J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 653.
[2] D.Crouch, ‘The Beaumont Twins’, p.91, citing Ctl St-Evroult, ii, fo 33v.
[3] K.S.B.Keats-Rohan, ‘Domesday People’ (1999), p.263.
[4] ed. M.Chibnall (1980).
[5] F.Chalandon, ‘Histoire de la Domination Normande en Italie et en Sicile’ (1907).
[6] E.M.Jamison, ‘Some Notes on the Anonymi Gesta Francorum ...’ (1939), in "Studies on the History of Medieval Sicily and South Italy" (1992), p.291.
[7] Although [5] cites a supposed charter to which William is a party in 1122, [6] mentions at least three documents between 1114 and 1117 which imply he is dead.
[8] Complete Peerage, Leicester’, citing J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 1062.
[9] J.H.Round, Cal. Docs France no 1157.
[10] Lechaude d’Anisy, "Extrait des Chartes, et Autres Actes, Normands ou Anglo-Normands, qui se trouvent dans les archives du Calvados" (1834) i 232, no 9.
[The French text is: Beatrix de Rye, par une charte sans date, donne a Saint-Jean-de-Falaise,
avec le consentement de son fils, diverses pieces de terre a Beauvane-en-Montabart, pour le salut d’Emma, sa mere, et de Guillaume de Grentemesnil, son frere, et confirme en meme temps les donations que ces deux derniers avaient faites a cette abbaye. La charte porte que Beatrix recut pour cette concession, non seulement diverses sommes d’argent, mais encore trois palefrois et une vache pour elle; et pour son fils Guillaume de Rye, un cheval du prix de cent dix sols angevins. Cette
charte porte egalement qu’elle la scella de son propre sceau et qu’elle le fit confirmer aux assises de Falaise par les gens du roi, Guillaume de Creully, Henri de Pont-Audemer, Michel Belet et Julien de Rye. (Ce sceau est brise).]
[11] Before this date the house had been a priory. A.Meriel, "Histoire de l'Abbaye Royale de Saint-Jean-de-Falaise" (1883).
[12] C.T.Clay (ed.) Early Yorkshire Charters, vol.ix, p.2 (1952). Beatrix certainly seems likely to have been an ancestress of the Emma who married Robert de Grandmesnil. But it is difficult to reconcile in detail the entry form the Liber Vitae of Durham with Clay's pedigree.